I read an enormous amount of books. I basically swallow them whole, like the little book monster I am. And this leads me to reading a mammoth amount of books about discrimination. I’m pretty sure at least 90% of what I read contains various spaghetti strands of some sort of discrimination — whether against gender or disabilities or sexuality or appearance or religion. IT’S MOSTLY ALWAYS THERE.
Why is this such a popular theme? Because discrimination is a ginormous part of Real Life. And while books don’t have to be totally realistic, they do have to be relatable or else readers are going to opt to eat a pineapple scone instead of reading. Unless readers opt to do both. I mean, I would opt for both??? But we’re digressing here. FOCUS, BOB.
So while I 100% think books need to discuss discrimination — I often throw myself against my bookshelf, weeping and gnashing my teeth, and ask,
“IS IT OKAY FOR ME TO WANT BOOKS THAT DO NOT INCLUDE DISCRIMINATION AT ALL????”
Am I horrible for wanting it?
Am I just ignoring important life issues and wishing to live in a fairy dust world of glittery potatoes and chocolate castles?
Or is it okay to wish for books that ignore the issue because, in A Well Ordered Universe, it wouldn’t be an issue? And if we don’t even have imagination to AIM for it, how are we ever going to get there?
Sometimes I just want to pick up an epic fantasy book where there is NO SEXISM. Or a paranormal where every character is a different nationality and it is NOT A BIG DEAL. Sometimes I want to NOT write in my reviews “I loved the diversity!” because I wouldn’t need to because diversity would be the norm, not an infrequent starburst of wonder.
Okay but we still definitely need a pros and cons list for this phenomenon of Do We Need Books That Don’t Deal With Discrimination At All? Pffft, don’t sigh at me like that, Bob. YOU LOVE LISTS. (And if you don’t, stick around, my pineapples. I shall show you the world.)
C O N S:
- IT IGNORES REALITY. Because reality is that people are judging you for everything always. And while books can ignore reality, they can also get really annoying. I mean, YEAH, I want to read about a girl who eats cake everyday and doesn’t put on a pound. But I also want to strangle her slightly because omg that’s so unfaaaaair.
- DISCRIMINATION NEEDS TO BE TALKED ABOUT SO WE UNDERSTAND IT BETTER. Honestly? A few years ago I didn’t even realise a lot of discrimination still happened. People are attacked because of colour. People are denied opportunities because of disabilities. People are denied entry into countries because of religion. (Duuuude, I was naive.) So if we pretend like this IS NOT a problem, then people won’t think about it. People need to think about it so they can fix it.
- BOOKS ABOUT DISCRIMINATION CAN BE EMPOWERING. Because it’s freaking awesome when I read about the epic warrior heroine slayin’ orcs and punchin’ alligators. Or whatever it is they like to do. And it’s awesome when the dude says, “You cannot do that because you are a weak woman” and then she turns around AND DOES IT AWESOMELY AND IT’S JUST SO GREAT. That’s empowering and inspirational. HUZZAH! Books where women kick sexism in the face make me so very happy. (Likewise with kicking other sorts of discrimination in the face too, naturally.)
- BOOKS ABOUT DISCRIMINATION CAN TEACH US WE’RE NOT ALONE. And it can show us how to combat it. Don thine armour and rise in glory, tiny warrior! You can do this! Because anyone who’s suffered bullying or abuse because of being part of a minority will really feel kinship to a book character going through the same. We need stories about people with disabilities who defy social expectations just as much as coming-out stories just as much as people fighting for equality. We can get strength from these stories. Also handy tips! Unless, of course, it is a book about assassins — then please do not take tips from assassin stories, okay? TRUST ME NOW.
P R O S:
- BOOKS WITHOUT ANY DISCRIMINATION INVITE US TO IMAGINE A WORLD THAT COULD EXIST. And imagination is fabulous. More fabulous than cake even, AND THAT’S SAYING SOMETHING. I actually get so so excited when I’m reading a matriarchy fantasy world, or or or if the protagonist is disabled but no one even comments on their weaknesses because they’re using their strengths and SLAYIN’. No one cares when that prince dude is asexual and must adopt tiny dragon heirs to rule after he’s gone. These things just are. And that’s so refreshing to me.
- SOMETIMES THE MESSAGES IN BOOKS ABOUT DISCRIMINATION ARE PREACHY AND I JUST WANT A BREAK FROM IT. I feel a bit guilty for confessing this??? But sometimes, for instance, I’m so sick of female protagonists having to learn their worth. I just want them to start OFF being worthy. Because I aspire to that myself! I want her to love her body from the first page. Just to remember it is possible.
- SOMETIMES TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON DISCRIMINATION MAKES US THINK IT’S NORMAL AND THEREFORE OKAY. Don’t get me wrong: it is normal in the sense that it happens. BUT IT SHOULDN’T BE NORMAL. I feel like I shouldn’t have to be surprised when I read about a queendom. But I always am.
- MINORITIES DESERVE CHANCES TO BE FICTIONALLY EQUAL. Maybe it’s not realistic to imagine a world without sexism…but it’s also not realistic to imagine a world where we all have dragon house pets who bake us woodfire scones and pineapple jam for breakfast. Yet those dragons will appear more in books than a non-sexist world would. HOW IS THAT FAIR?? How come some things can be imagined freely but not others? I DEMAND LITERATURE RECONSIDER THIS.
Personally? I think we need BOTH kinds of books.
I mean, obviously, right?? We need books that show us a world where we’re not going to be persecuted for how we look or act or who we are inside. Aaaaand we also still need books that show us what society is like TODAY, so we can be aware. And change things.
But is it too much to ask for more of the books-where-equality-is-the-norm? Because I honestly don’t think there are enough of them. I can find a ton of books where people fight for equality, but barely any where it’s just there. I would like some more, yes please and thank you. In return, I shall give out woodfired pizza from my kindly dragon house pets.
Also while I’m here: EQUALITY FOR DRAGONS! No more “dragon slaying” slogans to empower people. SHEESH. Dragons have feelings too, okay?!? #DragonActivist
Firstly, I’ve never had a pineapple scone and feel like I now need to experience them.
I think we need both too, because although hearing about discrimination is important and blah blah blah it gets a little annoying?
Like, I want people to KNOW THEIR WORTH. I want people to be treated fairly and not be discriminated against but i ALSO want books that feature discrimination and people rising above it?
I don’t know. I feel like I’m just talking in circles BUT I KNOW I WANT BOTH.
(Side note: I do think discrimination is needed because if there wasn’t any fictional characters would have a much easier time going about their lives and WHO WANTS TO READ ABOUT HAPPINESS AND A WORLD WHERE THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS???)
I don’t even know what I’m saying. Love this post though and oh my gosh- CRAVING pineapple (which I’m blaming you for).
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*whispers* I’ve never had one either??? I honestly feel like WE ARE BOTH POTENTIALLY MISSING OUT ON A LOT. *gasps*
Also YES. THANK YOU. You totally get what I’m saying! We NEED books on discrimination. But it bugs me that humans are opposed to the idea of imagining a world were equality is the norm. Why?!?!? WE CAN IMAGINE TALKING DRAGONS BUT NOT EQUALITY? THIS DOESN’T MAKE SENSE TO ME.
We do need both, though, *nods* because we can’t ignore it’s an issue and it needs to be discussed and taught.’
But honestly a lot of people are saying that discrimination is needed for plot, but of the books i’ve read recently, there are a TON of them that didn’t focus on any sorts of discrimination and still had a wild and exploding-with-action-and-emotion plot. I don’t think it’s the ONLY way to create conflict. 🙂
I think you could end up by sending quite a powerful message if there was no discrimination in a story and it was just assumed and part of the world. But if there was completely none of any kind, you may find it lacking in conflict. But I think we do need some more books where the characters are all really diverse, oh and some dystopians that are not set in AMERICA, PLEASE…. I really really want one of them which is set in Australia, or the middle east, or even England… Can’t someone destroy some other country other than America for once…. And if it all has to be set in America then at least mention the Aussies, (that part in the Percy Jackson books with the echidna goddess, that was so good, I think I went around the house telling the rest of my family about it) it makes us so happy, mention the Indonesians, the Russians, the whatever people, just some others.
But what book did you rip up to take those photos???
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I honestly don’t think it WOULD lack in conflict! Like just going off some of the books I’ve read recently, there was a ton of conflict and no discrimination (like in It’s A Wonderful Death, Steelheart, and even Half Lost). Not to say discrimination didn’t enter those books, but it didn’t centre around the conflict.
AND OMG DUDE, YES, I WANT SOME BOOKS NOT SET IN AMERICA. 😂 No offence to the Americans, but omg there are so many countries out there…gah. I also dislike how books set in America never talk about other countries. It’s like we don’t exist, omg. 😂
I do book art for my etsy store! 😀
This is such an interesting discussion, and I have to admit I am leaning between having it or not. I think the main reason discrimination exists in books is because it has always been and still is a major issue in our world. Unfortunately, human nature is always to put others down if it makes them seem better. I love reading about characters that fight for equality and achieve it, because that inspires me to fight harder for equality in this world.
But I totally would pick up a book where everyone is equal, to see how it was handled. It would interest me to see how the conflict switched from ‘proving yourself’ to other kinds of conflict. If it was written well, it could push us to take action, but if not it could come off as unrealistic.
Discrimination is a topic that I feel we should have two types of books for: one to show us how badly equality is needed, and the other to give us a model to strive for.
Great post, Cait! I love topics like this that make me think. 😀
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Oh definitely!! I thoroughly agree! And I definitely do NOT ask for books to stop talking about it. THAT WOULD BE WRONG. We need to discuss it and frequently because it is a huge thing in society. And it’s inspiring to read about people fighting for equality because it reminds us that it’s something that needs to be fought for! CONSTANTLY. (Not that I’m saying we forget, of course. But I guess when we get used to things being a certain way we can forget that they shouldn’t be?)
I think there are TONS of other kinds of conflict that don’t involve discrimination! Like, eeeeek, I could list a ton of books I’ve read recently where the conflict was not about discrimination. 😀
I sooo love how you said “one to show us how badly equality is needed, and the other to give us a model to strive for.” <--- YES THIS.
Great post with an important issue, especially since you can basically count down for the “Don’t you have better things to do?”-argument every time somebody critizes discrimination in fiction. I really think fiction can be a very powerful weapon against the walls in people’s minds. Just one example: Hermione Granger is an awesome character who is not only smart and a bookworm but also uncredibly loyal and brave. She is one of the many great female characters (e.g. Molly Weasley, Ginny, Luna and so many more) that the “Harry Potter”-Series offers and if characters like her help young girls to identify with her and starting to think and believe that being like Hermione – who is definetly not the kind of girl that fits into society standards or stands out for typically “female” attributes (e.g. beauty) but for her mind, her emotional/psychological strength and the values she believes in – is great and take fictional characters like her as a role model when the real world makes it so hard for the real women who are like that, then I believe demanding no or at least less discrimination or consciousness for discrimination in fiction has any justification it needs.
Anyway, thanks for this great post!
Hekabe
So I’m sorry, I’m not entirely sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me.🙈🙊 Eeep!! I do love what you said about Hermione! And I totally believe that’s why we DO need books where girls like Hermione have to fight against discrimination and fight for equality, because she’s a heroine for us to look up to!
But on the other hand, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to ask for books where girls don’t HAVE to fight sexism. I’m definitely not asking for all books to be like this. Just some? We can imagine dragons, but we can’t imagine a world that values equality?
Sorry, I probably expressed it badly (English is not my native language^^). 😉
I agree with you 😀 About the fact that of course not all books need to be that way: I think quite often it’s already enough if authors are aware how they portray certain groups. Many issues about discrimination (like women that are only defined by the relationships with men they have) are so bad because you can notice easily while reading the story that this kind of story is only the result of an author not questioning why the plot moves this way forward and not differently.
Btw: “We can imagine dragons, but we can’t imagine a world that values equality?” – YES! <3
Omg thank you for commenting again clarifying!! *sends you cake* Honestly it was probably my fault a bit too, sometimes my brain gets befuddled. hehe.
YES OMG YES I AGREE ABOUT THE “result of an author not questioning why the plot moves this way forward and not differently”. Absolutely yes. Sometimes I think writers don’t have enough imagination to see that the world could be different. And that makes me sad. 🙁 I would like to imagine a world with equality.
Thank you for your amazing comments. <3
This is an interesting question, Cait. I’ve never thought something along these lines, so this post was quite enlightening.
Anyway, if you ask me, personally, I’d lean more to the “we need discrimination in books” side. I strongly believe in that fact that fiction is a mirror that reflects reality, just in an alternative world. A world where there’s no discrimination, and where equality is the norm can be wonderful, that’s true, but it will take away the whole point. And even though sometimes reading books is an escape, the problems and discrimination we see in the fictional world will remind us that while we can temporarily escape the discrimination in our real world, we can’t forget that all worlds are faulty. I don’t know if I even make sense, but I think we need that bitter truth being reminded to us. It will keep us grounded in reality I guess.
And I agree with the points you mentioned under the cons. I personally love the angles and perspectives given to the concept, as it’s a different situation and experience for everyone. And in the end, the world is always going to be judgy, and we can’t do anything about it,
P.S – I HAVEN’T COMMENTED ON YOUR BLOG IN AGES!!!!! I FEEEEEELLLLL SOOOOO BAAAAADDDD!!!!
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Hiiiiii!! IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME. 😂 *gives you pineapple scones*
I totally see where you’re coming from and honestly, I agree partially. Because it would be unrealistic to ignore discrimination when it is a HUGE part of life and almost everyone probably is subject to it at some point, right? I disagree that it’d “take away the whole point though”. 🙁 Discrimination isn’t the only method to have conflict. And honestly? I read books about superpowers which are 100% unrealistic but it’s still a good book and can send good messages! If that makes sense? And I don’t know why it’d be wrong to imagine a world of equality because that’s what we WANT and are AIMING for isn’t it? Eeeep.
But it’s a big topic and I don’t think I know everything on it at all!! 😂
YES THANK YOU. I think that a balance is definitely necessary, and currently we’re really heavy on the “comment on discrimination” side of things. But isn’t actually having no discrimination WHATSOEVER a comment on today’s society, just in in a different way?
I’ve been trying to write my latest novels like this, and it’s actually harder than it seems, which I suppose is a comment on society in it’s own right. It seems easier to just mimic current society (with discrimination and whatnot), than to create an entirely new non-discriminating one. But I’ve been finding that it’s also more fun to play with fantastical scenarios where there IS no sexism or racism or whatever. It makes the conflicts have to be more complicated than just “I hate you because you’re not like me.”
I can’t recommend any, sadly, that are like this, off the top of my head, so I will pass on the cake. But I’ll grab a pineapple scone instead! 🙂
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MOST WELCOME. 😂 And I agree! We NEED books that comment on it because otherwise we’re ignoring a huge part of life. But I often wonder if we’re ignoring the part of life where we’re all striving for a world of equality, right? Isn’t that what we WANT the world to look like???? I don’t think asking for books-where-equality-is-the-norm should be an outrageous request.
I ACTUALLY DO THIS IN MY WRTING TOO. 😀 Some people say that there wouldn’t be enough conflict, but pfft. I don’t believe that at all. I wrote a contemporary with zero discrimination and it worked out! I absolutely refuse to write sexism into my books too. Just because there is ENOUGH of it in the real world and I wanna breeeeeak.
You may have some pineapple scones, yes. *passes you a few crumbs* I MEAN, WHAT’S LEFT BECAUSE I ATE ‘EM ALL. MWAHAHHAHA.
Lovely post Cate. On a side note after your obsession with Stiefvater I saw a copy of Shiver at the bookstore and grabbed it. Got reminded of it on seeing the picture. Later someone told me I have to read Linger first. 🙁
Omg no no! Someone is lying to you! Shiver comes FIRST. Linger is the second book!! (And also HUZZZZAH THAT YOU ARE READING THEM. They’re so so good. 🎉)
OOps. I mixed up the names. I have Linger with me. 🙁
Agh, okay, you do need Shiver first. 😂 I don’t think it’d make sense out of order? SADNESS. 🙁
Interesting discussion Cait 😀
I have not think about this for a while ..
Hm…
Well, I have not read book about world without discrimination so I don’t know for sure
But I agree for most of your points 😀
Btw, Do you have any suggestion about books without discrimination that I can read ?
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I’ve read books where it’s not a big issue but none where everything is completely equal.🙈🙊 (That I can think of anyway!) I would REALLY like to try it…
Ooh 😀 It is fine 😀
What is the title? 😀
Do you mean you want to try to write story where everything is completely equal.? 😀 Wow That’s great 😀
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It’s so interesting you talked about this, because I have a similarish (as in, it’s about the same idea) post going up next week. WE definitely need both sorts of books; but at the same time, I think the reason that there is discrimination in every book (between districts in The Hunger Games, Factions in Divergent, social classes in the Outsiders and more, religions, castes, male and female etc.) is because each human is unique, and many humans want power, and people fight people not like them. It’s the natural order of things, and a story without that aspect would be weird. (but not necessirily in a bad way). I can reccommend Noughts and crosses, where the black people are the longtime dominant caste. The Archived is one example of a story where discrimination isn’t really present (and there’s still conflict), as is Artemis Fowl (at least in the fairy world)
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Ohhh I seriously can’t wait to read your discussion then! 🎉
And I’m glad you think we need both sorts too *hi fives* But I honestly don’t think books without discrimination would be lacking for conflict. I mean, there are different sorts and people usually are fighting for control over each other because they think they’re better or whatever. And that happens in, like, fantasy books between like DRAGONS AND ELVES FOR GOODNESS SAKES. It’s definitely a thing. But I read a ton of books where it isn’t the centre conflict. It might happen quietly in the background as a sub-plot conflict, but not centre light, you know?
I am so with you on this issue. Sometimes i think too much attention on the subject defeats the purpose. you are still bringing attention to people being treated differently because of who they are, what they believe, and so on. Can we imagine that its not done this weay in real life and just have our fictional life where all is good. Lets have some books that everyone is accepted and people look past it without thinking about it. Happy world. I do think we need some though. They have their place for sure. we can’t ignore that it happens either. sad world. It does happen and we as people and this generation (all generations) need to know how it feels and what the real struggles are to understand better and to change. So yes i see your point. We need both.
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Exactly! We need both! We don’t want to ignore issues of today, but we also don’t want to say “these issues of today are going to last FOREVER and there’s no other option” because that feels like a sad way to live. 🙁 In my opinion anyway. 😂
When I first read this title, I thought you meant discrimination between magical beings and humans and stuff…
I can totally see where you’re coming from with the whole “it needs to be talked about so we understand it better” thing, but I also see what you mean about some writers being VERY preachy. And, let’s be honest, as a girl who can eat cake everyday and never put on a pound, reality is unrealistic.
Personally, I think it depends on what you’re writing, the era you’re setting the story in, and the age of the characters.
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WELL AT LEAST I ENDED WITH TALKING ABOUT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST DRAGONS RIGHT?!?! Because we need to stand up for our dragons! #DragonActivist Ahem. And dude, yes, some books really seem to be shoving things down my throat about it and I dislike that. 😳 I don’t think good storytelling should be sacrificed to get a message across, you know? Ahem.
WHAT. YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE CREATURES?!??!? I’m jealous right now. 😂
I don’t think a book dealing with discrimination is saying that discrimination is the norm, I think it’s saying it shouldn’t be. For me, it showcases that equality is something that needs to be worked towards: It’s the recipe, all the cooking and baking that goes into making the delicious pineapple scone that is the resulting world with equality. You need the recipe to make the scone, but sometimes, you just want to go to the café and buy it premade—enjoy all the deliciously goodness without having to sweat over it—ie fast food vs homemade.
Like you said, it’s not like neither can live while the other survives (wait, was that your or…). We need both, I think it’s just that, it’s easier to fangirl and root for books that deal such things, then let’s say, you’re everyday contemporary book (Contemporary fandoms vs Dystopian fandoms.). Where in the first, you might identify with it personally, or just feel really warm and fuzzy about it by yourself, the other lends itself to communities–to rooting for characters who are facing maybe more universal threats ones then specific/personal ones. A lot of times, there may seem to be more of one thing than the other, just because it’s what people talk about and I think with this case, that might be one of the reasons why there seems to be less books that don’t seem to deal with discrimination.
Another point that is kind of relating to this, but kind of not (idk), is where the discrimination lies in the story—i.e. is it the plot or is it another element of the book that isn’t the focus? If it’s the plot, then it would be all those dystopias and fantasies, if it’s another element than it might be something relating to the character and their identity.
It’s hard a lot of times to imagine books without it, because since discrimination is rooted in both people’s lives (plot) and their identities (ie privilege, not privileged how they’re perceived within the context of their society + how they seem themselves), if you’re reading a story where it isn’t present, oftentimes the characters seem…lacking in some way, less human, less real. That isn’t to say a book where everyone is equal would have less real characters, it’s more to say that characters who aren’t dealing issues in one or the other realm–or both–often feel less real.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Liz! 😀 I honestly feel like books without discrimination wouldn’t necessarily lack plot-conflict. I mean, most books DO HAVE IT. But I read many books where it’s not the central plot anyway and I honestly don’t believe they feel less real. It’s all subjective of course. And I stand by my thought that we need both kinds of books anyway. *nods*
Oh no, I totally agree about that. I wrote a lot on the one side because I thought you really illustrated why both of them are so important in the spectrum. I was mostly just musing on the idea of what about books with discrimination are so popular compared to books without it.
Also, for whether or not characters would be fleshed out if they aren’t dealing with such issues, like anything that deals with reliability that’s completely subjective (as you said). Your post really reminded me of another discussion I read (I wish I could find the post but I cant >.<) talking about whether or not "issues" are/should be intrinsic in the portrayal of characters of marginalized backgrounds. I was approaching my response to your question with that lens, where the issues that come with such discrimination (be it gender/race/sexual orientation/disability/ etc) are intrinsic in how people within those groups experience the world.
The writer basically asked the question of whether erasing experiences/struggles with discrimination in the character's identity would strip the characters of the true experience/ identity of that group (ie white wash them) which I think is an interesting question. It's not to say you need to be discriminated to identify within any of these groups, but more along the lines of if you are from one of these groups, you would know how that discrimination would feel like.
I feel like this goes along the line of video games where you can play as either male or female and the story/ relationships the characters has stays the same (ie games like mass effect and the like). For me this brings the question of whether or not identities are that swappable. Like, whose story are you telling if it can be so easily replaced with someone else? I don't know where I'm going with but yeah, love the conversations going on here <3!
It’s a huge topic right?! 😂 I honestly don’t think I delved in enough, after reading everyone’s comments! (I’m really happy to be part of a bookish community that thinks deeply from all angles about these kind of issues though! READING THE COMMENTS IS AMAZING.) And I’m totally appreciating your insights.
I guess discrimination can be part of identity. And I don’t, at all, want to say that we should ignore that. That’d be wrong. But sometimes, for fantasy worlds that have no connect to ours, I wonder why they can’t have different society dynamics? Hmm. But yeah: it’s also curious and interesting thinking about the swappable thing. So much to think about now! 😀
I love this post! I don’t think we need to necessarily do away with books with discrimination because it is a part of life (unfortunately) and it’s great to see how people can deal with it. But then again, I also crave books where people don’t care about race or sexuality or whatever. This does make me thing of gay main characters. 99% of the books out there (the ones I read anyway) are about the coming out process and how being gay is so different and it is this huge deal. Why does it have to be a big deal? Why does it have to be bigger than being straight? I would love a book with a main character who is gay and NO ONE CARES that he or she is gay. It’s just about a person wanting love or trying to survive an apocalypse or whatever and they just happen to be gay. Anyway, that was a long ramble, I know. Great post though.
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OF COURSE!! I would never want to do away with those books…we need them. We need more of them, too. But I just wonder when we can start to have some more that visualise a world were equality isn’t the #1 issue? AND YES I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOUR THOUGHTS HERE TOO. (That’s why I love the Shadowhunter books a lot! There is no big whoops about sexuality or the colour of your skin. It just IS.)
I guess this is like the argument about diversity, and whether they HAVE to involve the mechanics of that. I mean, an LGBTQ+ story doesn’t have to be about coming out – that’s part of it, but I definitely want to see stories about people who are gay without it being the defining facet of their identity, you know? SO I DEFINITELY AGREE.
AHHHH YAY, I’M GLAD YOU AGREE. 😂 And I’m glad you know what I mean! We need coming-out-stories…and also stories where they just ARE gay and it’s not a big deal. I firmly believe we need both. *nods*
To be honest, I am so sick of female heroines who are epic and sarcastic, sarcastic I can deal with, also epic, but when they’re both, it’s just so…annoying because EVERYONE does it! I just finished the Maze Runner, and the MC was a boy. *gasp* Whuuut? In a dystopian world? Is that even…possible?
But then again, discrimination is annoying as well, so yeah, both I guess. “D
Hehehe, I can recommend you some more dystopian books with boy protagonists if you want! I personally like the kick-butt female heroines, but I prefer the ones with emotional depth. The ones who are about as emotional as a frozen waffle don’t do much for me. 😂
Yessss! Like, I did not like Tris, TBH, she wasn’t like emotional or anything.
Ohhh, I agree. I didn’t really like Tris because of that too. *wails*
This was a good thought provoking post. I read it because of the mention of pineapple scones, of course…. 🙂 now seriously. I read it because I was curious about your thoughts on this topic.
It is hard for me to see discrimination. I know it exists. But it’s so hard for me to see because when I look at people of different race or nationality, I see people. I don’t see their skin color. I don’t see their sexuality choices. I don’t see their disabilities.
I work in a male dominated job field. I’ve never seen sexism. Does it exist there? Yes, it does. And has actually happened to me if I look at it hard enough. I just see it through the lens of “how can I improve” vs “I’m losing opportunities because of my gender.”
The discrimination I see? When Christians are being killed for believing in Jesus. When home educated kids are treated as less able to fit into society because they “weren’t socialized as children”. Or any number of things. But these aren’t the big issues of gender or sexuality or race or faith because they were the traditional norm in past years.
So thank you for this post. I appreciated the balance between realism and hope… And I think it is up to each of us to write stories that reflect a little bit of both.
Ps… I’m writing a story right now that involves a girl and her brother who are both super talented and cool and it isn’t a huge surprise! Lol.
OF COURSE YOU DID. *gives you pineapple scones* I mean, Idek what the point of my blog would be without random food references. 😂 AHEM.
I guess you have a very positive attitude about it all! But I do think it is important to see discrimination in our society today so we can fight it and handle it. You know? Just ignoring it isn’t going to change anything, unfortunately. *sad face* And there are MANY types of discrimination, like you said! And I honestly don’t think I covered the topic deeply enough in this post. #mybad BUT YEAH. Realism and hope = would be nice. ;D
Also your book sounds awesome!
Accepts and hordes pineapple scones *glares at people daring to walk closer to sniff said scones* I pay so much more attention to food in stories now because you have brought it to my attention, and it makes me want to put more in mine. Besides coffee, I mean. Coffee is a GIVEN. And… I digress.
I agree with you — we do need to see the discrimination so we can help change it. It’s not a topic that can be easily covered in depth, because it is so nuanced.
And thank you so much! *proud look at WIP* *blushes* Off I go.
OMG this was such a good, interesting post, Cait! I think we need both kinds of books. You know, so there’s equality between the books 😉
A lot of people seem to think that Tolkien’s books are sexist…..but if you really look at them, they aren’t. Who killed the Witch King Of Angmar? Eowyn, There was even a freaking prophecy about how only a girl could kill him. Then we have Luthien from the Silmarillion. She rescued Beren from Sauron, and put Morgoth into a trance(and that’s no easy feat, since he was like, the BIG BAD guy) so they could steal the Silmarils. And let’s not forget Galadriel…..the most powerful elf in Middle-earth. So I guess I recommend all of Tolkien’s books, and the Brotherband Chronicles by John Flanagan, because somewhere in book e(or was it 2? I can’t remember) we get a kick ass female character who can hold her own among the boys(she’s a freaking good hunter and warrior), and they respect her for that.
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Yessss, EQUALITY BETWEEN BOOKS. 😛
Well, I do like what you said about Tolkien’s books. !! But they still technically are sexist in the fact that Eowyn had to PROVE she could fight. She wasn’t allowed unless she sneaked in, right? (Um, this is going off the movies. The books might be totally different so correct me if I’m wrong.🙈🙊) Just because LOTR has feminism (like you said: prophecies about women, Eowyn being epic, girls rescuing guys, being rulers) unfortunately doesn’t mean the world is not sexist. Which is still fine. We need books like these because it empowers women!
In the books, women were allowed to fight. That’s what being a shield maiden was. So I don’t think the world was sexist, as they definitely did not supress their women.
Yeah Eowyn did have to sneek in, because she was supposed to be guarding the capitol, Edoras, in case invaders came.
Mironiel Blokzyl recently posted…The Food Book Tag | ORIGINAL
Okay!! I didn’t know, eeek. This is what comes of only seeing the movies. 😂 (Well, I mean, I did read the first book but it was ages ago and I’ve forgotten a lot. #shame)
How do you even come up with such post ideas? HOW EVEN-ahem.
I agree with you. Having both kinds of books is preferable, because I’ve been a person living under the rock before I started blogging. Things like diversity didn’t matter to me at all BEFORE blogging. *cue shocked gasp* I know, I know, I’m burning with shame 😩
This is just an opinion but discrimination does make things interesting. Don’t get me wrong, I condemn it but the stories of ladies or teenagers rising against the odds and facing challenges is really inspiring. It does make up a part of the conflict right? It’s human nature.
But then again, as you said, a world without discrimination would be totally awesome.
That being said, I totally ADORE this post! 😊
I DON’T KNOW. I THINK A LOT.🙈🙊 But omg I’m with you! Before I started blogging I didn’t even know what diversity was. *HIDES FOREVER* Which makes me really happy that blogging has introduced me to a lot of issues. I’m super passionate about feminism. :’) Especially in books! I want to see more of it and I haaate subtle sexism in stories that isn’t dealt with.
And of course! I totally agree! Discrimination is a huge plot conflict device. I think we can have conflict without it, but it’s still huge and important. And I think humans fighting humans IS totally part of our nature. (Unfortunately *sighs*) Even remove sexism from a story, and we’ll still have like magical people fighting non-magical people, right? Or something like that. 😛
Like you said books need to be relatable or else there will be nothing to connect to and discrimination is something that everyone has witness. If not to themselves but have seen it happened to someone.
I think that discrimination is good to have in books because no matter what the world is fantasy, superntaural or contemp it happens and it’s not just based on a person’s race, it happens everywhere and by having it in books it and having reactions from the people that were hurt by it helps people realise that things you say can hurt; even if you think it’s nothing.
Hope that all made sense.
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True! And if a book isn’t relatable at all, I think we’d lose interest. 🙁 But at the same time, I think saying that we CAN’T imagine a world were, for instance, women are equal with men and no questions asked — is actually kind of sad. Why can we imagine magicians but not men/women equality?
I think the key here is subtlety. I watched Zootopia awhile ago and I loved it and the message was a good one, except that it took its message and force fed it to the audience. It was so blatant and preachy that, ugh, I couldn’t stand it.
Neither of my books deal with discrimination directly. Both are indirect. For my modern fantasy the MC is an African American from a rich family. She wants to be an artists but her mother whats her to get a science degree. The reason for this is her mom grew up in a low income family and had to deal with racial prejudice as a child. So discrimination against African Americans with low income effects my MC’s life, but indirectly so.
In my other story discrimination, racism, and sexism are considered so rude that they’re almost illegal. Characters are very polite in that regards and it’s almost become a non issue. But there’s another issue mixed in because people have lost their ability to make that choice for themselves. And does it really mean anything if you’re only inclusive because the government says you should be?
So, in short, I like both. But I also like the to be subtual and I like them to be more gray areas than black and white, that way you encourage readers to think for themselves.
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Ooh, I haven’t seen Zootopia yet, but gee that’s sad. 🙁 I haaaate it when messages/themes are stuffed down my throat. *wails*
And I like how you’ve got different types of conflict in your book! (And your books sound AMAZING, btw.) And I honestly think I didn’t think about all the different kinds of discrimination when I wrote this post *hides* Like I’m thinking of the big ones (ageism, sexism, etc.), but what about like….magical people vs. non-magical people?? Like that’s still a form of discrimination. So. It’s a big topic and I don’t think I covered it enough, tbh. 🙈🙊
It’s still quite worth the watch! But yeah, the message was forced. 🙁
Aw, thanks. I’m shamelessly advertising myself. :p The second one still just sounds like a generic evil government. It’s more, I promise, but I’m still wrestling it into submission.
Absolutely agree. I think you can be discriminatory about anything, really. From religion, to social class, to hair color, to music preferences. But the ones you covered are the main ones, so no worries. 🙂
You know, I entered this blog post thinking I’d end up disagreeing by the end, but I can actually say I agree with you. We need BOTH kinds. *nods*
And because you’re probably curious: I only thought I’d disagree because I tend to see fantasy as a way to help us face reality, not as a way to escape it. That’s why I believe in dealing with real-life issues in fantasy worlds, especially if the characters of that world are human because, WELL, humans are still humans. Even if they were in a different world, they’d have the same flaws – the same potential to judge, to discriminate, to enslave… but ALSO the same potential to liberate, to open their minds, to change their ways.
I think we need to show worlds that deal with the same problems we have, because if they are then able to FIX those problems, (or at least resolve them somewhat), then we have that potential, too!! But if they’re too perfect and different from us, then it just becomes this distant fiction that feels inapplicable to our world… you feel me?? It’s MORE inspiring when they have our problems, and then rise out of them.
BUT, anyway, I agree with you because I think we need some worlds that mirror ours, and others that can be – how do I say it? – ahead of ours?? Sometimes we need to see what we can BECOME. That gives us something to look forward to. That sort of vision is often exactly what we need to create change in ourselves 🙂
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Well THAT proves I’m marvellous at convincing. MWAHHAHA. *ahem* No, but truly, we do need both, I believe. And I think the fact that it’s so very rare to find books where equality is the norm, is sad. I think it means humans are imagining far enough.
I do like what you said about using-fantasy-to-face-reality-not-escape! I think both, still, though?! 😂 Sometimes I just wanna read about a girl who doesn’t have to prove herself. Who just IS awesome and capable and everyone acknowledges it from the start. But it’s also hugely empowering to watch them fight for rights.
But I don’t think books where there are worlds with equality would equal perfection. I mean, who wants to read a book about perfection? I think there are plenty of other kinds of conflict.
*nods to comment about perfection* Fair enough! 🙂
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Honestly? I do feel like we need more books like this. There’s enough discrimination in the world right now, and to have it show up in every single book is…hard. I want a book about a woman knight who didn’t have to fight her way to the top because she was a girl. I want a book about a girl living in an Indian-based fantasy world who really wants to cook but doesn’t have to deal with discrimination when she goes to the French or British based part of that world. I want a boy to fall in love with another boy in a fantasy novel and for that to be completely and utterly okay. Normal, even.
And I’m not saying that books shouldn’t have any discrimination, ever, but with fantasy novels, especially epic fantasy novels, you have the ability to make or remake the world? If your characters are busy riding dragons and burning down castles, why add lots of discrimination in there, as well?
Eeeep, I’m so glad you see where I’m coming from Aine!! *Shares cake with you* IT WOULD BE SUPER NICE. Like I adore the girl who has to prove herself, of course. But I’d also like it if she DIDN’T. I mean, everyday life is full of us proving ourselves…so sometimes it’d be nice to “escape” into a story where we didn’t have to. And it’s weird to me that people can like envision magical fantasy worlds, but a story without sexism? Whyyyy is that so hard. 🙁
Hmm. I get you’re point and I totally hate having to be like “WHOA THIS BOOK HAVE O N E PERSON OF COLOR” because it’s lame that it’s some kind of reward instead of an expectation. But also discrimination is a huge part of a lot of conflicts that start in books that we continue on until the end. I think books with discrimination that show how wrong it is are good. Books with casual discrimination that don’t bring light to a bad situation… not so much.
But also books without such a big conflict can come off as boring to some people. Because people LOVE to fight for the underdog so if you have someone that’s already equal and not really an underdog… A lot of people will be bored. But I really enjoy slice of life now and then so I can see the appeal.
If you’re into books that don’t have like… societal discrimination, I just finished the English translation of Kizumonogatari. It’s very Japanese (since…it’s translated lol), but I really enjoyed it.
Great post!
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Very true!! I totally see where you’re coming from. And tbh, reading comments, I’m thinking I didn’t really delved in deep enough into this issue. Because discrimination has soooo many levels, right? I was thinking of a series that wasn’t discriminatory…but then it had the magic vs non-magic people warring. SO TECHNICALLY THAT IS. So I do think conflict in books does rely quite heavily on this. I guess it’d be nice to have some of the BIG discriminations wavered sometimes though? Like feminism, sexuality, gender etc? Just to let us dream of a world were it isn’t always an issue.
This pineapple agrees with you, but also finds it highly unrealistic. I came up with this book idea and was like, THIS IS THE BEST BOOK IDEA EVER because I’m not modest haha. Basically, I flipped things on its head and LOVED it and was like, but this would would be ripped apart and would not go over well because people would be like, nope, what is this madness? And there was this other idea where they’re on a spaceship (!?) and there’s equality for all and there’s no terror and pain and sexism and racism and other ism’s and I’m like, boy is this a fantasy. I don’t know if you remember I’m a contemp girl through and through, so it’s kinda sad that these ideas are fantasy based because it’s the only way they could be written 😐 Anyway, I’d love futuristic, butterflies singing equality recs if you get some from commentators. I might try and look back through comments but boy you have the craziest fangirls I don’t how you read/reply to them all 😀
Omg, you’re hilarious. XD YAY FOR GREAT IDEAS. 😂 I honestly haven’t had any one giving me rec’s yet! I mean, I get it. I guess I didn’t think about a lot of smaller discriminatory rec’s? Like sexism might not be an issue, but there’s magical people hating non-magical people or whatever. SO BASICALLY THIS TOPIC IS MEGA-COMPLICATED AND I DON’T THINK I DELVED IN DEEP ENOUGH. 😂 Oh well. I still think it’d be awesome to have some books that talk about equality. 😛
Oh, I definitely think we need both kinds of books, but what a breath of fresh air it would be to read a book where race, gender, age, sexual orientation, social status etc didn’t really matter the same way it does in many books (and for most people in real life, too). It could be like showing us that while it might seem impossible, it could still happen. Some people would find it to be utopia, while others would just be euphoric to read about other things that has to do with human condition 🙂
As always, excellent post, Cait!
YES EXACTLY! I’m definitely not saying we should ignore what the issues are right now. But it worries me that we can dream about magical superheroes or something, but not about equality?! WE NEED TO DREAM. And I don’t think a non-discriminatory story would equal utopia necessarily. There’s always other kinds of conflict. 😀
My concern with books that don’t have discrimination would be a lack of conflict. What would drive the story? What would the main character be fighting against? I just don’t see how there could be an interesting story without some sort of discrimination on some level. It doesn’t have to be race or sex; those are just the big ones. There are all kinds of other forms of discrimination, and some can be quite subtle. What about the young kid who wants to do something, but isn’t allowed to because of his age? Or the person who falls out with lifelong friends because they’ve suddenly changed and her friends don’t like it? There’s always some sort of discrimination going on. Even if it’s just based on something as small as a differing of opinion.
I do get that! I think discrimination isn’t ALWAYS the forefront of conflict though? But that’s just my opinion. You’re right that it’s often smaller-conflicts too, like age and stuff like that. I would honestly say that I don’t think there’s any discrimination-conflict in the Skulduggery books. There’s still good vs evil, but I personally think it’s different.
But you make very good points here!
Yes, we do.
Okay, but let’s go into more detail. I agree, there needs to be some sort of inner message of ‘it’s okay to be a woman and like cream cakes and kicking ass’ or ‘you can totally have a prosthetic leg and still be the hero the world needs you to’ because more than ever children need to see idols that are realistic and are like them. Children and young teens will turn to books and characters that empower them, give them strength and passion if they know they can do that no matter who they are, their background, their weaknesses, their struggles or their abilities. We NEED to say ‘hey kids, you don’t have to wish you were like that celebrity anymore, because you’re exactly like this kick-ass amazing protagonist in my story!’
BUT, I do wish there wasn’t a big song and dance about having no discrimination in fiction, and I wish there were fantasys or dystopians that give us hope in a world were there isn’t any. I still haven’t come out to most of my family (bi btw, woop!) because I KNOW there will be discrimination in there, there will be a lack of understanding and confusion behind it all, and I DREAM of being in a world were I DON’T have to say I’m into women, a world that just doesn’t react or say or question or wonder and even care who I’m holding hands with, and I PRAY for books like that.
I wish for books that give us all hope of a better world, but I guess we NEED to encourage it through our young readers who will evidently control what happens in our futures and how free of discrimination our world will be, and the best way to do that is to put those worlds in front of them and show them that it doesn’t make a difference who a person or what they’re like, they can still achieve greatness.
Still, in short – yes, we do.
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YES. I SO AGREE WITH YOUR THOUGHTS HERE!! And, like even personally, I always get excited for books with characters struggling with the same things I am. It’s empowering. And it’s comforting. WE ARE NOT ALONE. I think books need to send messages of “you’re not alone”…I think that’s a huge part of their magic. *hugs all the books*
And zomg, I don’t even understand WHY we can’t envision worlds without it? We can have a fantasy world with angels fighting monsters, but pfft, no we can’t imagine what it’d be like if skin colour wasn’t an issue. -_- Or gender. OR A TON OF THINGS. GAH. And I know we need things like coming-out-stories for sure and certain. But I also want stories where it just IS. (I think I really like Shadowhunters for this reason. <3)
I think we need to encourage people to dream too. 😀
BASICALLY I LOVED YOUR COMMENT, THANKS, AMANDA. <3
Your last comment about the dragons made me think of Talon by Julie Kagawa. I haven’t read it, but it has been sitting right next to my bed for weeks. I feel there should be a 50-50 amount of discrimination and non discrimination. If we don’t have discrimination we completely forget what the real world is like, and they kind of teach us about reality. We also need books without discrimination, we still need smiles out in the world. I also think books without discrimination show that you do anything you set your mind to. I have seen the new movie Zootopia, and there is a bunch of discrimination in that movie. It made me think, “This is Disney?!” But I also read this short story in school called Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. It is set in the future and the whole world is equal Like same amount of beauty (if your more beautiful you have to wear a mask), pretty much if you are better at something than anyone else there are reprimands to make you equal, so there is no discrimination. Here is a link to the story:
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
Tell me what you think of it?
*whispers* Talon is sooooo good. YOU MUST READ IT. (I mean, it’s not staggeringly original. BUT DRAGONS. :D) Ahem.
And yes! I think it’d just be nice to have some options, you know? Like I am not here to say “enough about books about discrimination” because NO. WE NEED THEM. We will always need them. But I also think we need some without. Ooh, I’ll check out the story!
I do agree with you, we definitely need both kinds of books but definitely not with over the top preachy meanings because they just tend to take it to a whole new level which is not actually necessary. Great post Cait!
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Ugh, preachy books are the worst right?!? I want to make my OWN decisions, not have them stuffed into my eyeballs.
Personally, I would love to live in a world of glittery potatoes and unicorns and free books for everyone, but you’re right, we don’t. People judge other people for what they see as the slightest imperfection. Nowadays people even judge others for being skinny at the same time they judge somebody else for being overweight. There is no pleasing anybody.
Anyway, I agree with you that reading books where the protagonist is disabled in some way or they have dark skin and it’s completely normal is pretty awesome. . But I ALSO enjoy reading a scenario where the protagonist fights against judgement and may stray away from the norm but is all the more awesome for it. Because people in this world stray away from the norm and are pretty awesome. Everybody has their own opinions, including me, and I know for a fact that mine sometimes clash with even those who believe in diversity. But hey, that’s a diversity in itself.
So yes, I agree with you that there needs to be both. Because reading influences us and we need to be careful what we put into our imaginative little brains. We can choose what we want to see, and I want to see both. Partially it depends on what mood we are in though, because readers are very picky creatures and sometimes we would rather read a book where everything is rainbows and unicorns and free books for everyone, and sometimes we want to read about a depressing world where the hero/heroine rises against the norm and looks fabulous whilst doing it.
As I said before, we are very picky creatures. Anyway, I loved the post and the opportunity to talk about a very touchy subject. God bless!
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Too true. *heavy sigh* There IS no pleasing anybody. And I think it is in human nature a bit to draw lines and consider certain things better than others. And life is NEVER going to be perfect. But it does bother me that we can imagine elves and dragons but not equality. 🙁 I think books represent society as is pretty amazingly now, but why can’t we imagine a future too???? I’m not saying books need to have PERFECT settings. omg no! There is plenty of conflict apart from discrimination.
And I agree! That’s why we need BOTH. It’s empowering to see people rising up and kicking away stigmas and doing it even though a society is saying “Nope, go sit in the corner you are nothing”. LIKE, YAY TO PROTAGONISTS WHO FIGHT TO BE DIFFERENT. HUZZAH!
We need both kinds I think. Also, why am I not surprised by all the Stiefvater pictures? I should read those books hehe.
Because I’m ever so subtly hinting THAT I YOU GOTTA READ THEM, STEFANI. ;D
Argh I totally agree! If I absolutely had to choose, if there could be ONLY ONE, then I think I would choose books that do represent discrimination. As much as I love reading books that don’t need to build someone up and everyone’s just cool with things, if you could have only one I think the empowering side effect that you get from those books is suuuper important.
Also, that moment when you realise that dragons are more the norm than some form of disability in a book, *slow blinking*.
I’m trying to rack my brain for books like these and sort of failing miserably. But on the flip side, Simon vs the Homo Sapiens is HANDS DOWN my favourite lgbt novel. Ever. That book, my god, it’s fabulous. Or maybe even Tyrion from Game of Thrones (I’ve only read book one), he handles all the bullying he gets from his dwarfism excellently.
SAME. I would pick books-with-discrimination if we could only have one — because we need to discuss it! ALWAYS. But I think it’s kind of weird how the imagination knows noooo bounds in literature UNTIL IT COMES TO THIS TOPIC. And then books can’t seem to move past it?
And dude, YES. It’s sad??? I mean, I looove dragons. But seriously. I wouldn’t really blink at reading a dragon book, but I would be like thrilled and excited at the unusualness of having a disabled protagonist. *SIGHS* WHAT IS THIS LIFE.
Simon and Tyrion are amazing. <3
It would be difficult to choose, you know. I’d say that I agree with you on having both kinds. Then we can be picky depending on what we are in mind for. On days I may prefer something like The Kite Runner, on others, I may just want to read Harry Potter… WAIT… did I just say Harry Potter? Muggle vs Mudbloods? DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!
Ok not HP… but say… ummm… Goodness… I can’t think of a non-discriminating book… OK, may be… umm… may be… ummm… uhh… well… HELP!
THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN!!! There are like none. Gah, although most books don’t have ALL types of discrimination. Like Harry Potter isn’t sexist. 🎉 But it does deal with racial discrimination. I just think it’d be nice to imagine some books without it…at some point?!?
I have to agree… but discrimination is such a part of daily life, I wonder if that is not the reason why it is difficult to write without it. We are all discriminating beings at one point or another. Even the best of us =( Have I ever thought “man are you an idiot or what…?” inside my head ? Oh heck ya! It’s sad I know… but true none the less… it may not be racial, or sexist… but it is still discrimination or one form or another… the idea of ME being in one way or another better than someone else… *sigh*
YES!! I would like to read books without discrimination. While it isn’t very realistic, that would be okay. Books are meant to be an escape, and don’t always need to remind us of the not so great things in our world.
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EXACTLY. And we can totally imagine dragons and accept that with ease, right?? So why not, for instance, a non-sexist fantasy world? 😀
Interesting topic. I hadn’t thought about it but I guess I would agree on most levels. I think there should be books without discrimination just because yet again I think sometimes we need a book with it.
Yayy! I’m glad you see where I’m coming from. 😀 Both would be super nice. :’)
This is such an interesting discussion post Cait! I’m really torn. For one, I wish that there wasn’t any discrimination so we didn’t need to discuss it in the first place. But, on the other hand, I feel like the only way to change things and to make people more accepting of others is to discuss discrimination and show how it affects people. Thanks for sharing and, as always, fabulous discussion! ♥
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Yes for sure! I didn’t want my post to say I DON’T want book without discrimination. WE NEED THEM. I just wonder why it’s so radical to believe in, like, elves and dragons, but not in a non-discriminatory world?
Omg, Cait! A couple of weeks ago I was reading a synopsis of something on Goodreads… gah, I wish I could remember what book it was. Anyway, it was a SciFi set in the year bazillion and two and some guy had rated it two stars because there wasn’t some form of some type of something, and he said it wasn’t realistic. Grrrrr… this is really bothering me that I can’t remember! I thought, my gawd, if we are not past that “something, something” by the year bazillion and two, shame on us! I know I always say things not being realistic is one of my major pet peeves, but that is only for Contemporary, or the “real world” parts of stories that change between real and fantasy. I agree that if a book is set 100% in the far future, or in a fantasy land, go for it. Yes, we do need to be able to read about worlds and societies were all injustices are wiped away. Fabulous discussion post, Cait. Take a bow. I want pineapple scones. 🙂
I would like to THINK that books set in the future would include us thinking differently, right!??! I mean we think SUPER differently now than we did in the 1800s?!? And also for fantasy worlds that aren’t attached to our world at all — I think it’s fair to ask that OCCASIONALLY they struggle with something else?
*whispers* omg I want pineapple scones too. I hope a thing exists because I REALLY HAVE A CRAVING.
You’re right, there are pros and cons to having books with and without discrimination. I know I would love to live in a world where discrimination does not exist, but because that is not the case, I do love to escape into fictional worlds where that’s the case. But at times, I also love to read books where the protagonist – a protagonist I can relate too – shoves discrimination into the faces of those that tell them that they cannot do or be what they are. Those books are empowering as hell, and definitely make me happy.
So yeah, we need both. (Also more dragons.)
So much agreement! And also to the needing-more-dragons. Like, honestly, there are NOT enough dragon books out there. WE CAN BE DRAGON ACTIVISTS TOGETHER.
YES! ALL THE DRAGONS. Dragons who braid kids hair, dragons who breathe fire just to bake, dragons who SING. ALL THE DRAGONS.
I personally think that we need all kinds of books, the more the merrier. And this includes books without discrimination. I know that diversity is the hot topic these days and a lot of books want to highlight the injustices of the world by showing discrimination in their books (which I think is noble if approached the right way). But I totally agree with you that it is just as important to showcase worlds where equality is actually the standard. I personally do not think that I have read any books like that, and it seriously depresses me now that I realize that. All possibilities should be addressed in books, regardless if it reflects our world or not. I mean, we have books where animals talk, dragons roam the skies, and people have superhuman abilities, so is it really so far-fetched to have a book with social equality?
I love your take on this topic. These are the conversations that we need to have, sooner rather than later.
Yesss! ALL KINDS!! I think it’s important, too, to imagine a world without discrimination and not just accept it. It’s actually scary, personally, that I’ve found people find discrimination is part of who they are and they couldn’t be without it. The world really sucks in that respect, to have driven people to that. 🙁
Ooohhhhh, I hadn’t thought about this! Interesting point. It would be nice to see societies where our norms aren’t their norms, as in, it ISN’T and HAS NEVER BEEN a thing to see someone with different colour skin and discriminate against them.
On the other hand, conflict is the essence of drama and obvi the characters need to come up against some opposition … So is that just from people who are nasty/jealous/cruel? I guess that could work, though I can’t properly imagine it in a fantasy setting, because fantasies always have, like, evil rulers (like the Havilliard king, I’ve forgotten his name even though I’m currently reading Heir of Fire!) or whatever, and then we’ve got the rebellious protagonist (Celaena fighting them, but the evil rulers, because they’re rulers, never have a personally vindictive agenda; they’re always using their power to discriminate against a group of people, like those with magic in Throne of Glass. So is it possible to write a fantasy with a king/queen as the villain who isn’t discriminating against a group/nation??
Anyway, really interesting topic!
And I think it’s fair to wonder why fantasies don’t do this, right?!? Because it’s not like they’re attached to our world or anything!
BUT YES. I mean, I think there are many other kinds of drama/conflict that don’t involve discrimination — but it is still like the #1 plot device. Even from like magical vs non magical beings or something. SO YEAH. (*whispers* I don’t THINK the king in Throne of Glass has ever been named????? I always wondered about that.) I guess books about man vs nature would work. But I suppose anything with man vs man is going to have some sort of “I-want-to-be-the-best-and-you-are-a-worm” sort of thing going on?
Yes, I agree with you. I think that discrimination is important to discuss, but also important t be like ‘this is not normal let’s do something about it’ (and the examples you gave were fabulous by the way. *pauses so Cait can hair flip* In history the other day we were listening to a podcast about Jinnah who basically is the reason Pakistan is a thing and anyway they we re talking about if you exclude more and more people there will be nobody left, so trying to have a homogenous society just won’t work. I actually can’t think of any good non discriminatory books but I enjoy them because I think sometimes the depictions of discrimination (gosh, that’s a mouthful) aren’t always realistic and are added in for extra plot of something.
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Yessss. I really hate the thought that we are all so USED to discrimination that we can’t envision a world without it. Because that’s super sad. I would like to think we could be working towards eliminating it, or else what’s the point of fighting, right?!
*flips hair obligingly*
Like you say, I think both books are very important. Books with discrimination definitely opens up everyone’s eyes and shine light on the harsh, yet necessary, reality. On the other hand, sometimes fluffy and not-so-serious reads are okay! For instance, after a break up, I would lean towards a more summery contemporary over a dark nonfiction about the Holocaust. However, there are also some fluffy reads that talks about SOME societal problems, such as consent or sticking up for oneself.
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True! And I don’t think that having non-discriminatory books would equal fluffy necessarily. Because sometimes I wonder why fantasy worlds that are completely detached from our own, will have same stigma problems? I feel like some variation could be interesting. 😂 But we DEFINITELY need both.
“No one cares when that prince dude is asexual and must adopt tiny dragon heirs to rule after he’s gone.” YES YES YES. I want to write about asexual princlings with awesome dragon heirs now. *heart eyes* I think it’s both true- I love reading books where everybody! can! just! do! whatever! because! NOBODY! CARES! but at the same time, you’re right- it’s sad too because it’s practically impossible. :/
DO WRITE IT. I SHALL BE FIRST IN LINE TO BUY YOUR STORY.
I love this post! I think you have hit the nail on the head. I would love to read more books where diversity and equality are treated so normal it’s not an issue. ALthough I also want both types of books as I think there are still lots of -ism’s we haven’t fought yet and literature definitely helps break down those barries. In a – kinda – related way I saw the movie How To Be Single earlier in the year and in it the lead character who is a twenty something white girl dates an older black guy who is also a single Dad. I kept waiting for some cringy joke about their inter-racial romance and IT NEVER CAME (unlike other supposedly progressive shows **GIRLS**). The same movie also never made any fat jokes about Rebel Wilson’s character who is a total party girl and has casual romances all the time. It made me so happy because THAT felt like progress to me and it felt like a step forward.
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Yessss. *gives you cake* I’m glad you see where I’m coming from! *collapses in relief*
AND omg now I want to see that movie. 😂 I’ve seen the ads, but those kind of movies aren’t usually my thing…but seriously?! That sounds really good. Like finally we can move past some of these hangups and just tell the STORY. Sometimes I think a lot of these things get in the way of the story. I’m not saying we should ignore discrimination. But I’d like to imagine that WE can envision a world without it?? If that makes sense. 😂
This topic is top of mind for me right now. I’m reading a series that takes place during the Civil War. One of the characters is a free black man. I’m really impressed with the character and his development, but the author (and I’m in the 3rd book in the series) keeps saying OVER AND OVER AND OVER again how difficult things are for him. Yep, I get it. He’s black, he’s an educated free man and the Civil War is going on…so yeah, it’s going to be a lot of discrimination happening. You don’t have to keep telling me X is happening to him because well, he’s black. Maybe to a reader NOT familiar with the Civil War the reminder is needed. I just find it annoying.
It’s tough to think of a book where equality is the norm. Discrimination because of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. provides an excellent point of contention in a lot of books. It gives the characters something to fight for or against and it leads to discussion and personal reflection. I don’t mind reading about it, but I like it to be a bit more subtle if that makes ANY sense.
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I do get that *nods* Like repetition of ANY kind sort of drives me up the wall. >_> I mean, I know this is different: but I read a book recently that basically mentioned the girl had red hair EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. SHE. WAS. ON. THE. PAGE. Gahhh. I was so irritating. Sometimes books talk down to their readers. Not cool. >_>
And I agree that discrimination is pretty much a HUGE thing for conflict. *nods* I guess the only non-discriminatory books I can think of are man vs nature?
Maybe, but my favorite man vs. nature books is a YA series (Ashfall by Mike Mullin). When the kids organize a community in the aftermath of the natural disaster all the adults discriminate against the kids because they are not “old enough.” 🙂
I feel exactly the same way. Well said!
Yayyyy, I’m glad, Lauren! 😀
This is a really good point. I would love to read a fantasy that has zero discrimination in it. That would be awesome. Just because it’d be nice to envision it. To see what could be. Also, sometimes it does get preachy, which is always annoying no matter the topic. I do think that yes, we do need to know what it is and address the topic properly. Yet when we talk about the problem too much, we start promoting the problem. Does that make any sense? I’m half of the opinion that we need to stop talking about it to make it go away. Like you said, in a non-discriminate world, nobody would blink an eye at a person of a minority doing something epic. Because they’re capable human beings like the rest of us. I’m a little conflicted over it. We do need to be educated about it and it is empowering for minorities. We do need both kinds of books. But like right now, diversity is the THING to talk about. It’s the THING to have in your book. Am I wrong in thinking that this isn’t the best of hypes? It’s a hype that doesn’t solve it’s own problem, it further advertises it? Agh! I don’t know!
And then I think about how people want to know who they are and in finding out who they are, they find out who they are not. We eventually, always, put labels on EVERYTHING. Of course, we don’t have to use labels as a means to discriminate, but often it happens. So how realistic would a non-discriminating world be?
Deep post!
It totally makes sense! And I think it’s sad if we honestly say books ALWAYS need to have discrimination…doesn’t that mean we can’t envision a better world??? And I’m not asking for books that are 100% utopia. There are tons of other conflicts in life too. *nods*
That’s why I definitely think we need both. So we can empower people AND show that we want this world were it doesn’t matter what you look like or if you’re able-bodied. It’ll be “normal” (I mean, wut even does that word mean 😂) for these people to be the protagonists of the story. :’)
I do agree that we need both kinds of books. And I also agree that sometimes I need a break from them. Discrimination makes me angry and I don’t particularly enjoy reading books that make me angry. Mostly I just want to get lost in a new and wonderful world and forget about this one. 🙂
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Yessss, same! I mean, I want books that make me think about Real Life Issues and I don’t want to live in a permanent bubble of fantasy. 😂 Buuuut, what’s the point of FANTASY if we don’t imagine different worlds and different ways society could be, right?!?
I’ve thought about this before too. Not that I don’t want to see books where people are fighting for equality, but sometimes it’s nice to imagine a world where it actually exists!!
YES. EXACTLY!! I’m glad you know what I mean. <3
I guess from a really boring perspective you could argue that most books start with a problem to be solved (to put it really simplistically), and if the world starts off perfect, then what would that even be?
But I don’t want to be the person who made that argument.
This is a really difficult discussion for me. Mainly because I think that YA itself discriminates massively. There are, like you said, a few wonderful and diverse books that we all love, but for the most part… they are really, really not. I think what’s even more frustrating than reading the same plots over and over again is to read the same plots that aren’t even internalising their own message. It’s undeniable that vast majority of the girls at the centre of these discrimination plots are white, thin, and conventionally attractive. Maybe in constantly writing about the issue the YA market is working toward actually becoming diverse?
I guess we can hope that’s what’s happening, anyway.
Well, I’m not advocating for utopias or perfect worlds! There ARE plenty of other means of conflict that don’t necessarily have to be discrimination.
I think YA is doing better being diverse and striving towards that. So huzzah for that!
I don’t think ALL books need to have some sort of discrimination in it. I don’t mind if they do, but hey a variety is always great. 😀
YES! Variety is the spice of life, right?! 😂
Great topic. I agree with you, we need both. One thing I love about paranormal and fantasy, is that you can tackle these issues without tackling them directly. I read a book where one shifter’s fated mate was a different species and it was a huge problem for his family. It was very much as if someone came home to a racist family as a interracial couple. It also showed how much of a bigot the family was being without even realizing it. They grew up with hyenas being horrible and evil, so they felt that they were all that way. It wasn’t until their brother walked away that they realized that there might be something wrong with their ideas.
The Hunger Games is a whole different example, in that world, there is discrimination, but not in the way we see it today. Boys and Girls fought in the games. Rue and Thresh were not looked down upon because they were black. They were treated about the same as the other “non-career” district tributes by the other tributes. I think even the capital was mixed race, but it is hard for me to remember. It was all about the haves and have-nots, be it in the districts, with the mayor and Peacekeepers or the people in the capital or the career tributes in those districts.
I guess for me, as long as they as I read the story as discrimination as being a bad thing, then I’m okay with it. It does allow for something for the characters to overcome in the story. It would be great to not have to have this discussion one day because it was a non-issue, but I think that day is a long way off. Kinda like diversity in books, but that is whole nother discussion. Great topic.
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Oh I do like what you pointed out about The Hunger Games! SO TRUE. There is almost always SOME sort of discrimination in books, because I guess: Conflict, right?!? But I suppose I more meant the Big Issues Of Today (like sexism and racism for instance)…but I really didn’t summarise that very well in my post. 😂I think I only scratched the tip of the surface of my thoughts on this issue. AHHHH. Maybe a follow up post will come in another day. AHEM BUT EYAH.
I think the day of discrimination being a non-issue IS a long way off too! But I think we need to imagine it and aim for it and not becoming accepting of the world for how it is.
We need both! My preference depends on my mood; sometimes I need to know other people out there have been through it, or similar, and I want to know about what it’s like for other axes of discrimination. Sometimes I need everything to be good (a la David Levithan’s Boy Meets Boy or something). There’s room for both, I think!
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Yayyy, I’m glad you agree, Nikki!! 😀
I LOATHE reading about discrimination because it makes me so upset and angry, and I don’t read to be upset and angry. And yet I definitely think we need books with discrimination because it exists, and it hurts people. Plus, these books with awful discrimination and bullying might open someone’s eyes to the fact that it IS happening, and therefore stop them from possibly doing it in the future. Or helping someone who is experiencing it. It’s important that books do reflect reality, and that includes the horrible aspects of our world, as well.
But I also LOVE reading books where diversity is the norm, and no one is discriminated against. Especially in spec fic. I mean, I don’t think a contemporary could really do this because contemporaries are set in the modern time, and unfortunately diversity is NOT the norm in current society. But it is so refreshing to read this because it’s like: WOW, I want the world to be like this. And it makes me happy for the characters in that world, and also hopeful that one day our world can be like that, too.
So, like you said: we definitely need both. For different reasons.
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Reading books about sexism ALWAYS get to me. aRGHHH. I mean, we need them, and I choose to read them, but I GET SO INDIGNANT. 😂 Ahem. But yes. We need to talk about it, always. And it changes a person and affects their entire life, so that kind of thing can’t be ignored (particularly in contemporaries). But fantasies have this WHOLE WORLD FO NEWNESS and it saddens me when they so often just use the same dynamics as our society. Pleeeeeease. BE IMAGINATIVE, FANTASIES.
Ooh. I think it’s complicated. In terms of LGBTQ+ books… well, I think it’s very common for straight people to downplay homophobia and I’ve noticed that this trend extends to books? So you end up with straight authors & fans being all like, “We live in a post-homophobia world” and that’s just… no. That’s not true. At all. And it really, really worries me when there are contemporary books where it’s just not a thing, because it always impacts us in some way.
I think what it really comes down to, what your entire argument comes down to, is a question of genre? Like, there is absolutely no reason why a fantasy world or a futuristic one would have the same social norms as ours. Genre fiction is escapism for a lot of LGBTQ+ people and it’s very frustrating that we still have so little LGBTQ+ genre fiction, because sometimes you just really want to read something that isn’t about homophobia and transphobia, but it would be dishonest for books set in the real world to pretend that those things don’t affect us in our day-to-day lives.
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Well, true. And I definitely didn’t say we love in a post-homophobia world in this post! I think it’s sad though, if we don’t have the imagination to believe things could be different. And if books aren’t a way to explore and comment on this, then what is? I don’t think it’s fair to lump straight-people together though.
And agreed! Contemporaries couldn’t do this without being thoroughly unrealistic.
I definitely think that society and books in the world of society, after all, will need to talk about discrimination – whether it be a little or a lot, as long as it’s balanced in the story. In a perfect world, yes – this line from your post would totally apply:
‘Sometimes I want to NOT write in my reviews “I loved the diversity!” because I wouldn’t need to because diversity would be the norm, not an infrequent starburst of wonder.’
^^ THIS STATEMENT IS SO TRUE. There should NOT be any need to even reference diversity as a whole CONCEPT, because that would be everywhere, and everything would be diverse!
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Too true! We absolutely 100% need to talk about it. And I’m not advocating for utopia worlds here, either. 😂 I think there are tons of way to involve conflict and stuff, but maybe skip SOME of the common discriminations…at least in fantasy worlds? SOMETIMES. Not always. Just to make us think. *nods*
I really, really agree with you, I think both is definitely the way to go. Obviously, this would have to be more of the fantasy/alternate reality/future/whatever genre, because I think that not showing truth in contemporary is probably a bad call. But in other genres? I think that there is a TON of power in showing what COULD be. Like, if you created a world in which people don’t discriminate, and there is some kind of really great strength based on THAT alone, I think it sends a fabulous message. It isn’t ignoring that discrimination happens here- it’s acknowledging that and in turn showing how much discrimination is holding us back. Of course, I think it has to be done in the right way, in the right setting, but if it does? Yes please!
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TRUE. Because if contemporaries just bend society’s rules, then they’re not really contemporaries anymore, right?! But there are soooo many epic fantasy worlds that just stick to the SAME society discriminations we have and…WHY?!?!? They could at least invent NEW ones, right?! 😂 And zomg I love how you said “it isn’t ignoring that discrimination happens here- it’s acknowledging that and in turn showing how much discrimination is holding us back.” <-- EXACTLY. THAT's REALLY WANT I WANTED TO SAY IN MY POST!! YOU GET THE COOKIE.
This is a really interesting discussion. I do involve discrimination in my stories, though one is taking a flip side on things, about if women ruled a society too much so it’s taking away from men’s well being. I hear about women being discriminated a lot and it’s interesting exploring if it was the opposite and how this would affect men. I’m all for equal rights, but that goes for men too. I’m not trying to start a debate, but this is just my two cents.
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I didn’t ever say that men didn’t deserve equal rights! Not once, actually. I am thoroughly a feminist which means “equality” not women meaning more then men.
Ahhh, discrimination. *sighs deeply*
My problem with books that show discrimination is that it can very easily overbalance and create new problems. Like, for instance, I understand that ladies in many parts of the world are still thought of as not equal to men, and that in the past this was an even larger problem.
However, I think that sometimes people see discrimination where there is none, and they demand special treatment. That gets into the area of entitlement. My older brothers actually have trouble finding jobs and so on because they are /white males/. Also, my brother’s college professor actually put him through a lot of grief simply for being a white guy.
So, what about books that show that sort of perspective, where the tables are reversed? Or, yeah, I’d love to see a book where this just isn’t even a thing.
You’ve touched on a very important topic, I think, and your ideas are thoughtful and useful.
Keep writing!
I completely understand *nods* And actually I feel like things get a bit poisonous…maybe it’s just online? But it seems if you AREN’T part of a minority or aren’t diverse, then you actually get hated on for it? Which is ridiculous. We want to make everyone EQUAL. Not make white people (for instance) less. I also hate how many books I read where there’s the acidic jokes of “aw poor little rich white boy” and how that’s “okay”. It shouldn’t be. And I also hate how it’s “okay” to say nasty things to a white-person because of their colour, but not to a coloured-person. It legit doesn’t make sense to me.
Buuuut anyway. I’m rambling. 😂 I agree with you! We need both and some reversals would be awesome. 😀
(And omg thank you so much!! I feel like I probably only touched the very tip of a larger post and I didn’t think I did it quite enough justice. 😂)
Exactly.
Also, You’re welcome!
I concur, we need both!
YAYYY. *shares cake with you*
Can’t I eat pinneaple scone WHILE I read? XD and honestly I love books about discrimination. Whether it’s real life discrimination against race or religion or whatever, I also enjoy fantasy books where characters are discriminated against because of the type of magic they perform or the royal family they’re from xD
But I also get what you mean. Constant exposure to something leaves us desensitized. I also want equality to be the norm! I don’t want someone to say about my WIP that “it had too many latinos” because that’s just MY reality.
Awesome post! <3
WELL. VERY DEMANDING AREN’T YOU. 😂 *shares scones with you anywya*
And omg I love your comment so much. This is what I feel too! WE NEED BOTH. (Also I really hate when people say “this book overdid the diversity” because…what even!? There is never too much diversity in a book!!)
OMG YOU ARE A GENIUS I LOVE YOU. You always make the most creative discussion posts!
I agree. I actually think constantly including discrimination in books (usually sexism) is not only tiring—but kind of fuels it in a way? Like, I honestly didn’t even realize women were inferior to men in any way until I read all these books where women are treated basically like scum. If I hadn’t read the same situation so many times, I would have never even bothered to be discouraged by sexism!! I know it sounds counterintuitive, but sometimes completely ignoring the problem can make it go away—just think about it—if all the women in the world banded together and ditched men, we could literally rule the world, there are more women than men, after all.
Ok. This was so so not my point.
But, I mean, if we teach a generation to just basically ignore sexist pigs, then they will never doubt themselves, then they will take over the world. Because books with sexism—they kind of taught me to doubt the myself, ya feel?
Also…I really feel that books shouldn’t have to be relatable to be good. It’s just my opinion; and I totally respect other ones, but I feel that books that AREN’T relatable are what make reading so special. They teach new perspectives, they make us see the world differently, they literally make us better people. In my opinion, anyway. Just my two cents 🙂
OMG YOU’RE SO NICE. 😂 *gives you pineapple cake*
I do see what you mean about the “Fuelling it” too *nods* Like I think it’s a BIG part of a lot of people’s lives and it affects minorities almost constantly. We have to talk about that. WE DO. But I also think it’s uber sad if the general populace can’t imagine life without it. And what are books if not to imagine a different world? And this doesn’t mean it has to end up as a utopia either! There are a gazillion other conflicts.
I’m not entirely sure I agree that ignoring it will make it go away though. 😂 I believe in raising awareness! BUT AT THE SAME TIME — I do agree with you that I think we kinda flame the fire at times. Especially with media. *shrugs* But gah. I think we need to raise awareness and think of a world without discrimination. It’s a huge complex discussion, right?! And I barely scratched the surface. 😂 😂
Ohhhhh, I feel ya on getting a little tired (guiltily so) of reading all the discrimination plotlines. Sometimes I feel like the author is going out of their way to add it in there, and I don’t know why? To score points with readers somehow? And I kind of feel like maybe they should write a SEPARATE book in which a character fights for equality if that’s an issue that’s important to them, and give it proper page space, instead of cramming it into another story and then it turns into a glossed-over footnote.
That said, when it’s an essential part of the story and it’s well done, then I appreciate it. And I think it is good to read about because it opens your eyes to things you might not have known existed, as you pointed out. When I read Americanah I had no idea there was such a rift between American-born people of color and POC who came directly from Africa–that book opened my eyes to a lot of discrimination that I’d just never thought about before, being born in America and white. So it was very educational and I think without that discussion happening within the story I might not have ever dug into that side of racism in America.
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OH I so agree!! I mean, I guess I had a rather sheltered childhood, but omg, once I started getting on the internet and reading American books I was REALLY surprised the discrimination between colour is still so huge. 😳 I honestly thought that was the stuff of 40 years ago. BUt…no??? So YEAH. I mean, I think we need to talk about it and raise awareness for issues! And discrimination is a HUGE part of some people’s lives and can make up a lot of their identity too, I guess. SO WE GOTTA TALK ABOUT IT. But I 100% agree with you about sometimes books make it into a footnote. And that seems wrong, too, right?! Because it’s a big issue and it shouldn’t be glossed over.
I’ve felt that way about quite a few of the LGBT characters I’ve encountered lately…I feel like for a long time it was a REALLY BIG DEAL to have these characters, which was both good and bad–good because it started a discussion, but bad because it shouldn’t be a big deal if someone is straight or gay or bi or trans. Then it turned into this thing where it *wasn’t* a big deal, which was kind of good, because it meant people finally realized that, hello, LGBT people are also people and should not be treated as exotic, and so you found these characters in books more and more. But now I’ll read books where a characters pops up who’s completely one-dimensional and the author takes great pains to point out that they’re not cis-straight, and it’s almost like they want a pat on the back for deviating from the standard. It’s annoying and marginalizing.
Whew, that got long! (exhales) I think that’s part of why I really like authors like Holly Black who write in these characters as though it’s absolutely, perfectly normal for them to be gay and no one makes a fuss about it. As it should be. I feel like she’s writing those characters as real people, not as diversity props.
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Your post actually made me kind of sad, realising that discrimination is just the norm in real life so it transfers over to fiction as well. It’s extremely rare to find a book that DOESN’T discriminate in some way, whether it’s sexist, culturalist or something else. Interesting post Cait! You definitely made me think.
Yessss, it IS SO SAD. And I felt really sad after writing this post and realising so many commenters say that books should ALWAYS have discrimination. I feel like we’re limiting ourselves by not imagining a different world. (And I’m not saying books need to be utopia either! There’s other kinds of conflict out there *nods*)
I was thinking of Harry Potter. Even though in the movies all maincharacters are white, J.K. Rowling actually left it open in the books, whether Hermione has a dark skin color or not, also there are tons of characters like the Parvati sisters, Lee Jordan, Cho Chang and in the movie Dean Thomas, who aren’t white, but it isn’t ever commented that they’re simply equal members. On the other hand, Harry Potter of course has muggle and mudblood discrimination, but I think that was a good example of Rowling to show us, how easily one discrimination can replaced by the other. At least ethnicity doesn’t play a role in these books.
I personally think, if you want to write about diverse characters, it’s hard to avoid mentioning at least a bit discrimination. Whatever I think of, when ethnic belonging doesn’t matter, there is always something else taking the part of discrimination, for example droid and alien discrimination in Star Wars (while human skin color is a minor issue), also I think, many authors usually have a contrast in their books, to work out both aspects, for example, when Isabelle in the Mortal Instruments is the contrasting character to Clary, because she know who she is, fights badass and likes her own body at the beginning of the story, while Clary still has to learn a lot.
What I want too is, that you can write a female, black or asian villain without being said that you’re writing a discriminating story, when the characters theirselves are actually strong and serve their purpose for the story.
This is such a thoughtful post Cait! I had never really thought about it, but indeed why does there have to be discrimination in a fantasy world? They can have magic but not equality?? I agree that we need both kind of books and I wish I could recommend you a fantasy book (or any other genre) where equality is the norm but… Do they even exist?
Yayyy I’m glad you see where I’m coming from. 😂 I definitely think we need both! Just to expand our imaginations and make us think of OTHER struggles, right??!? I have no idea why every-fantasy-world ever MUST be sexist. -_- Although The Seven Realms by Cinda Williams Chima has a matriarchy (!!!!)
#DragonActivist for the win!
Diversity in books, honestly, is one of those things that I really didn’t notice when I was younger and wish that I had been more aware of. Then, one day, it’s like the lights turned on and that was ALL that I noticed when I read. And initially I was like “wow, way to tackle that issue head-on” and it was great and I loved it. And then I bemoaned the fact that it is SUCH an issue in the world that is ends up all over the place, and like you, I questioned whether we should really be aspiring for more — for it to NOT be an issue. Personally, from a book perspective, I like to have them balanced. Sometimes I like my books to be light and fluffy and BE a perfect world 🙂
Now that I’m working full-time and have to take these periodic diversity trainings, I find myself in a similar head space. Like, we do so much of “diversity is great; it adds value to the workplace; we should strive for more diversity,” and I always find myself asking “But by pushing this “propaganda” (let’s be honest, that’s what it is) so much aren’t we just admitting that lack of diversity is still a problem? Are we just preaching tolerance and not actually solving anything? Shouldn’t we be EXPECTING natural diversity as part of the norm and not have to make a conscious effort to go “Oh yeah, and there are people who aren’t like me.” Or even more importantly, shouldn’t we just KNOW that just because people have different backgrounds/perspectives doesn’t mean “they aren’t like me?”
Liza @ Classy Cat Books recently posted…I Hate Mid-Series “Epilogues” [Monday Morning Musings]
I totally agree! BALANCE IS KEY. I think we should aspire to a world where it isn’t always an issue? AND we should acknowledge how the world is *nods* It actually bothers me that so many people think it’s outrageous for it not to be an issue though??? Like do we honestly have no imagination for a better world?! Gah. Although I think having less discrimination won’t make a world utopian. 😂 We humans ALWAYS have a zillion other things to fret about.